Discussion:
[sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
George, Wes
2014-05-01 17:42:00 UTC
Permalink
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in ISIS and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I gave them -

It is important to distinguish between places where a unique identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address assigned to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action on).
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be unique across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter, or is the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to something on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the value isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are easier for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP address) but that value as a human-readable set of info does not necessarily justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as we move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all. Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a network. If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be documented in the draft.

There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has been used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft identifying this problem and discussing several solutions, including simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically generating a random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4, either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another standalone draft.

There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q=%22%5Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1

And in the IDR meeting, minutes:
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)

I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on this.

Thanks,

Wes George

Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail server, I have no control over it.
-----------

________________________________
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout.
George, Wes
2014-05-01 17:50:40 UTC
Permalink
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the authors’s email addresses directly.

From: <George>, "George, Wes" <***@twcable.com<mailto:***@twcable.com>>
Date: Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
To: "draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>" <draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>>, "draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>" <draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>>
Cc: "draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org>" <draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org>>, "***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>" <***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>>
Subject: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in ISIS and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I gave them -

It is important to distinguish between places where a unique identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address assigned to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action on).
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be unique across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter, or is the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to something on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the value isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are easier for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP address) but that value as a human-readable set of info does not necessarily justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as we move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all. Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a network. If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be documented in the draft.

There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has been used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft identifying this problem and discussing several solutions, including simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically generating a random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4, either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another standalone draft.

There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q=%22%5Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1

And in the IDR meeting, minutes:
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)

I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on this.

Thanks,

Wes George

Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail server, I have no control over it.
-----------

________________________________
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout.
Marc Blanchet
2014-05-01 23:00:16 UTC
Permalink
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the authors’s email addresses directly.
Date: Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
Subject: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in ISIS and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I gave them -
It is important to distinguish between places where a unique identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address assigned to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action on).
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be unique across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter, or is the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to something on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the value isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are easier for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP address) but that value as a human-readable set of info does not necessarily justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as we move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all. Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a network. If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be documented in the draft.
There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique identifier is needed,
Back about 13 years ago, when we converted the NTP code to IPv6 and run the first IPv6 NTP server, we had the same issue. NTP4 had a 32 bit id to uniquely identify servers. We tried various ways with NTP protocol engineers and the result was to keep the 32 bit id as is, with some additional protocol logic "behind the scene".

Marc.
and by convention an IPv4 address has been used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft identifying this problem and discussing several solutions, including simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically generating a random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4, either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another standalone draft.
There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q=%22%5Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)
I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on this.
Thanks,
Wes George
Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail server, I have no control over it.
-----------
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout.
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
Xuxiaohu
2014-05-04 08:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Hi Wes,

Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.

The motivation for these two drafts (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas, however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result, it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations between IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6 addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has the ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before> inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of router B.

Best regards,
Xiaohu

发件人: George, Wes [mailto:***@twcable.com]
发送时闎: 2014幎5月2日 1:51
收件人: Xuxiaohu
抄送: ***@ietf.org; ***@chinamobile.com; ***@chinamobile.com
䞻题: Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the authors’s email addresses directly.

From: <George>, "George, Wes" <***@twcable.com<mailto:***@twcable.com>>
Date: Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
To: "draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>" <draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>>, "draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>" <draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>>
Cc: "draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org>" <draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org>>, "***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>" <***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>>
Subject: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in ISIS and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I gave them -

It is important to distinguish between places where a unique identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address assigned to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action on).
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be unique across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter, or is the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to something on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the value isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are easier for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP address) but that value as a human-readable set of info does not necessarily justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as we move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all. Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a network. If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be documented in the draft.

There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has been used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft identifying this problem and discussing several solutions, including simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically generating a random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4, either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another standalone draft.

There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q=%22%5Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1

And in the IDR meeting, minutes:
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)

I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on this.

Thanks,

Wes George

Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail server, I have no control over it.
-----------

________________________________
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout.
Les Ginsberg (ginsberg)
2014-05-04 13:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Xiaohu –

RFC 5316 already has defined this – see sub-TLVs 11 and 12.

If the concern is that these are defined as TE specific it would be better to make an explicit statement to allow these to be used for purposes other than TE as has been done in RFC 5305 and RFC 6119 than to define a duplicate sub-TLV.

Les


From: OSPF [mailto:ospf-***@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Xuxiaohu
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 1:29 AM
To: George, Wes
Cc: ***@ietf.org; isis-***@ietf.org; ***@chinamobile.com; ***@ietf.org; ***@chinamobile.com
Subject: Re: [OSPF] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

Hi Wes,

Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.

The motivation for these two drafts (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas, however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result, it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations between IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6 addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has the ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before> inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of router B.

Best regards,
Xiaohu

发件人: George, Wes [mailto:***@twcable.com]
发送时闎: 2014幎5月2日 1:51
收件人: Xuxiaohu
抄送: ***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>; ***@chinamobile.com<mailto:***@chinamobile.com>; ***@chinamobile.com<mailto:***@chinamobile.com>
䞻题: Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the authors’s email addresses directly.

From: <George>, "George, Wes" <***@twcable.com<mailto:***@twcable.com>>
Date: Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
To: "draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>" <draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>>, "draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>" <draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>>
Cc: "draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org>" <draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org>>, "***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>" <***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>>
Subject: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in ISIS and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I gave them -

It is important to distinguish between places where a unique identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address assigned to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action on).
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be unique across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter, or is the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to something on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the value isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are easier for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP address) but that value as a human-readable set of info does not necessarily justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as we move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all. Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a network. If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be documented in the draft.

There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has been used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft identifying this problem and discussing several solutions, including simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically generating a random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4, either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another standalone draft.

There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q=%22%5Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1

And in the IDR meeting, minutes:
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)

I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on this.

Thanks,

Wes George

Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail server, I have no control over it.
-----------

________________________________
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout.
Xuxiaohu
2014-05-05 02:31:31 UTC
Permalink
Hi Les,

As you have pointed out, sub-TLV 11 (i.e., the IPv4 TE Router ID sub-TLV) and sub-TLV 12 (i.e., the IPv6 TE Router ID sub-TLV) are TE-specific. Otherwise, there would be no need for defining sub-TLV11 since there has already been an IPv4 router ID field in the IS-IS Router CAPABILITY TLV. Of course, if the WG consensus is that the IPv6 TE Router ID sub-TLV can be reused to address the TE-irrelevant problem as described in the following draft (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00), it’s no problem for me to propose reusing the above sub-TLV, rather than defining a new sub-TLV in the draft.

Best regards,
Xiaohu

发件人: Les Ginsberg (ginsberg) [mailto:***@cisco.com]
发送时闎: 2014幎5月4日 21:42
收件人: Xuxiaohu; George, Wes
抄送: ***@ietf.org; isis-***@ietf.org; ***@chinamobile.com; ***@ietf.org; ***@chinamobile.com
䞻题: RE: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

Xiaohu –

RFC 5316 already has defined this – see sub-TLVs 11 and 12.

If the concern is that these are defined as TE specific it would be better to make an explicit statement to allow these to be used for purposes other than TE as has been done in RFC 5305 and RFC 6119 than to define a duplicate sub-TLV.

Les


From: OSPF [mailto:ospf-***@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Xuxiaohu
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 1:29 AM
To: George, Wes
Cc: ***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>; isis-***@ietf.org<mailto:isis-***@ietf.org>; ***@chinamobile.com<mailto:***@chinamobile.com>; ***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>; ***@chinamobile.com<mailto:***@chinamobile.com>
Subject: Re: [OSPF] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

Hi Wes,

Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.

The motivation for these two drafts (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas, however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result, it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations between IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6 addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has the ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before> inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of router B.

Best regards,
Xiaohu

发件人: George, Wes [mailto:***@twcable.com]
发送时闎: 2014幎5月2日 1:51
收件人: Xuxiaohu
抄送: ***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>; ***@chinamobile.com<mailto:***@chinamobile.com>; ***@chinamobile.com<mailto:***@chinamobile.com>
䞻题: Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the authors’s email addresses directly.

From: <George>, "George, Wes" <***@twcable.com<mailto:***@twcable.com>>
Date: Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
To: "draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>" <draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>>, "draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>" <draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>>
Cc: "draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org>" <draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org>>, "***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>" <***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>>
Subject: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in ISIS and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I gave them -

It is important to distinguish between places where a unique identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address assigned to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action on).
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be unique across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter, or is the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to something on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the value isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are easier for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP address) but that value as a human-readable set of info does not necessarily justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as we move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all. Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a network. If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be documented in the draft.

There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has been used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft identifying this problem and discussing several solutions, including simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically generating a random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4, either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another standalone draft.

There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q=%22%5Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1

And in the IDR meeting, minutes:
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)

I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on this.

Thanks,

Wes George

Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail server, I have no control over it.
-----------

________________________________
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout.
Fan, Peng
2014-05-03 16:14:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi Wesley,



Thanks for the information. I’ve been working on this following the feedbacks from the last meeting, and will contact Xiaohu to see if we are on the same page.



Best regards,

Peng



From: sunset4 [mailto:sunset4-***@ietf.org] On Behalf Of George, Wes
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2014 1:42 AM
To: draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org; draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org
Cc: draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org; ***@ietf.org
Subject: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs



I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in ISIS and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I gave them -



It is important to distinguish between places where a unique identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address assigned to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action on).

In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be unique across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter, or is the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to something on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the value isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are easier for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP address) but that value as a human-readable set of info does not necessarily justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as we move to IPv6.

I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all. Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a network. If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be documented in the draft.



There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has been used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft identifying this problem and discussing several solutions, including simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically generating a random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4, either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another standalone draft.



There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q=%22%5Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1> &email_list=idr&q=%22%5Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1



And in the IDR meeting, minutes:

http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)



I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on this.



Thanks,



Wes George



Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail server, I have no control over it.

-----------



_____

This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout.
Acee Lindem
2014-05-05 14:28:01 UTC
Permalink
Xiaohu – what are precisely the situations that you think you need this IPv6 address?
Acee

From: Xuxiaohu <***@huawei.com<mailto:***@huawei.com>>
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:29 AM
To: "George, Wes" <***@twcable.com<mailto:***@twcable.com>>
Cc: OSPF - OSPF WG List <***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>>, "isis-***@ietf.org<mailto:isis-***@ietf.org>" <isis-***@ietf.org<mailto:isis-***@ietf.org>>, "***@chinamobile.com<mailto:***@chinamobile.com>" <***@chinamobile.com<mailto:***@chinamobile.com>>, "***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>" <***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>>, "***@chinamobile.com<mailto:***@chinamobile.com>" <***@chinamobile.com<mailto:***@chinamobile.com>>
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

Hi Wes,

Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.

The motivation for these two drafts (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas, however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result, it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations between IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6 addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has the ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before> inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of router B.

Best regards,
Xiaohu

发件人: George, Wes [mailto:***@twcable.com]
发送时闎: 2014幎5月2日 1:51
收件人: Xuxiaohu
抄送: ***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>; ***@chinamobile.com<mailto:***@chinamobile.com>; ***@chinamobile.com<mailto:***@chinamobile.com>
䞻题: Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the authors’s email addresses directly.

From: <George>, "George, Wes" <***@twcable.com<mailto:***@twcable.com>>
Date: Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
To: "draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>" <draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>>, "draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>" <draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-***@tools.ietf.org>>
Cc: "draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org>" <draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-fan-idr-ipv6-bgp-***@tools.ietf.org>>, "***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>" <***@ietf.org<mailto:***@ietf.org>>
Subject: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in ISIS and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I gave them -

It is important to distinguish between places where a unique identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address assigned to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action on).
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be unique across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter, or is the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to something on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the value isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are easier for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP address) but that value as a human-readable set of info does not necessarily justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as we move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all. Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a network. If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be documented in the draft.

There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has been used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft identifying this problem and discussing several solutions, including simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically generating a random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4, either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another standalone draft.

There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q=%22%5Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1

And in the IDR meeting, minutes:
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)

I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on this.

Thanks,

Wes George

Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail server, I have no control over it.
-----------

________________________________
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this E-mail and any printout.
joel jaeggli
2014-05-05 15:54:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Acee Lindem
Xiaohu – what are precisely the situations that you think you need this IPv6 address?
Acee
if you're using router-id's as equivalency as an ipv4 unicast addresses.
you're doing so at your peril because there is zero assurance that those
actually map. the first time you have a router id of
11100000000000000000000000000101 well bummer.

I don't find the embedding of semantic meaning in router-ids to be more
compelling then it was in ip addresses.
Post by Acee Lindem
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Wes,
Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very
simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for
advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas,
however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result,
it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations between
IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For
example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN
session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has the
ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before>
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of router B.
Best regards,
Xiaohu
*发送时闎:*2014幎5月2日1:51
*收件人:*Xuxiaohu
*䞻题:*Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the
authors’s email addresses directly.
*Date: *Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
*Subject: *[sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in ISIS
and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This
has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are
copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I gave them -
It is important to distinguish between places where a unique
identifier is needed, and by *convention* an IPv4 address assigned
to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places
where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the
protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action on).
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be unique
across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter, or is
the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to something
on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the value
isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are easier
for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP address)
but that value as a human-readable set of info does not necessarily
justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as we
move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must
merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all.
Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry
IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a network.
If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be documented
in the draft.
There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique
identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has been
used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft
identifying this problem and discussing several solutions, including
simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically generating a
random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4,
either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another
standalone draft.
There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread
here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q=%22%5Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)
I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on this.
Thanks,
Wes George
Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail server,
I have no control over it.
-----------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or
subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it
is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and
attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify
the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any
copy of this E-mail and any printout.
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
Xuxiaohu
2014-05-06 01:48:00 UTC
Permalink
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月5日 23:55
收件人: Acee Lindem; Xuxiaohu; George, Wes
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Xiaohu – what are precisely the situations that you think you need
this
IPv6 address?
Acee
if you're using router-id's as equivalency as an ipv4 unicast addresses.
you're doing so at your peril because there is zero assurance that those actually
map. the first time you have a router id of
11100000000000000000000000000101 well bummer.
The IPv6 router ID sub-TLV of the ISIS router capability TLV must carry a "routable" IPv6 address. If the name of the sub-TLV seems confusing, it can be changed to IPv6 address sub-TLV.

Best regards,
Xiaohu
I don't find the embedding of semantic meaning in router-ids to be more
compelling then it was in ip addresses.
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Wes,
Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very
simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for
advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas,
however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result,
it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations between
IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For
example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN
session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has the
ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before>
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of router B.
Best regards,
Xiaohu
*发送时间:*2014年5月2日1:51
*收件人:*Xuxiaohu
*主题:*Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the
authors’s email addresses directly.
*Date: *Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
*Subject: *[sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in ISIS
and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This
has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are
copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I gave
them -
It is important to distinguish between places where a unique
identifier is needed, and by *convention* an IPv4 address assigned
to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places
where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the
protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action on).
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be unique
across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter, or is
the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to something
on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the value
isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are easier
for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP address)
but that value as a human-readable set of info does not necessarily
justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as we
move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must
merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all.
Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry
IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a network.
If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be documented
in the draft.
There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique
identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has been
used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft
identifying this problem and discussing several solutions, including
simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically generating a
random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4,
either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another
standalone draft.
There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q=%22%5
Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)
I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on this.
Thanks,
Wes George
Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail server,
I have no control over it.
-----------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or
subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it
is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and
attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify
the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any
copy of this E-mail and any printout.
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
Acee Lindem
2014-05-06 13:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Xuxiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月5日 23:55
收件人: Acee Lindem; Xuxiaohu; George, Wes
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Xiaohu – what are precisely the situations that you think you need
this
IPv6 address?
Acee
if you're using router-id's as equivalency as an ipv4 unicast addresses.
you're doing so at your peril because there is zero assurance that those actually
map. the first time you have a router id of
11100000000000000000000000000101 well bummer.
The IPv6 router ID sub-TLV of the ISIS router capability TLV must carry a "routable" IPv6 address. If the name of the sub-TLV seems confusing, it can be changed to IPv6 address sub-TLV.
Independent of what you call it, you didn’t answer my question. Other than TE, what the use cases where it is needed?

Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
I don't find the embedding of semantic meaning in router-ids to be more
compelling then it was in ip addresses.
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Wes,
Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very
simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for
advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas,
however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result,
it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations between
IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For
example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN
session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has the
ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before>
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of router B.
Best regards,
Xiaohu
*发送时间:*2014年5月2日1:51
*收件人:*Xuxiaohu
*主题:*Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the
authors’s email addresses directly.
*Date: *Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
*Subject: *[sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in ISIS
and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This
has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are
copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I gave
them -
It is important to distinguish between places where a unique
identifier is needed, and by *convention* an IPv4 address assigned
to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places
where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the
protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action on).
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be unique
across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter, or is
the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to something
on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the value
isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are easier
for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP address)
but that value as a human-readable set of info does not necessarily
justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as we
move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must
merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all.
Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry
IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a network.
If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be documented
in the draft.
There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique
identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has been
used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft
identifying this problem and discussing several solutions, including
simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically generating a
random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4,
either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another
standalone draft.
There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q=%22%5
Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)
I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on this.
Thanks,
Wes George
Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail server,
I have no control over it.
-----------
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or
subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it
is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and
attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify
the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any
copy of this E-mail and any printout.
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
Xuxiaohu
2014-05-07 01:10:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi Acee,

The motivation for these two drafts (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas, however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result, it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations between IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6 addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has the ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of router B.

Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月6日 21:14
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Post by Xuxiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月5日 23:55
收件人: Acee Lindem; Xuxiaohu; George, Wes
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Xiaohu – what are precisely the situations that you think you need
this
IPv6 address?
Acee
if you're using router-id's as equivalency as an ipv4 unicast addresses.
you're doing so at your peril because there is zero assurance that
those actually map. the first time you have a router id of
11100000000000000000000000000101 well bummer.
The IPv6 router ID sub-TLV of the ISIS router capability TLV must carry a
"routable" IPv6 address. If the name of the sub-TLV seems confusing, it can be
changed to IPv6 address sub-TLV.
Independent of what you call it, you didn’t answer my question. Other than TE,
what the use cases where it is needed?
Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
I don't find the embedding of semantic meaning in router-ids to be
more compelling then it was in ip addresses.
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Wes,
Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very
simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for
advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas,
however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result,
it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations between
IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For
example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN
session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has the
ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before>
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of router B.
Best regards,
Xiaohu
*发送时间:*2014年5月2日1:51
*收件人:*Xuxiaohu
*主题:*Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the
authors’s email addresses directly.
*Date: *Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
*Subject: *[sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in ISIS
and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This
has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are
copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I gave
them -
It is important to distinguish between places where a unique
identifier is needed, and by *convention* an IPv4 address assigned
to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places
where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the
protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action on).
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be unique
across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter, or is
the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to something
on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the value
isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are easier
for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP address)
but that value as a human-readable set of info does not necessarily
justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as we
move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must
merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all.
Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry
IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a network.
If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be documented
in the draft.
There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique
identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has been
used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft
identifying this problem and discussing several solutions, including
simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically generating a
random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4,
either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another
standalone draft.
There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q=%22
%5
Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)
I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on this.
Thanks,
Wes George
Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail server,
I have no control over it.
-----------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--
--
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or
subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it
is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and
attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify
the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any
copy of this E-mail and any printout.
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ie
Xuxiaohu
2014-05-09 00:53:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi Anton,

When ISIS capability TLVs are flooded across areas, routers in one area may need to establish correlations between IP addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B (identified by an IP address) has the ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet. In such case, it needs to contain at least one routable IP address in the capability TLV which has been flooded across area boundaries. In the IPv4 network, the 4-octect router ID field could contain such routable IPv4 address. However, in the IPv6 network, there is no counterpart field to contain a routable IPv6 address.

Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月8日 22:49
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hello Xiaohu,
this whole thread started from George Wes stating that even in pure
IPv4 world Router ID in many protocols is NOT an IPv4 address. For convenience
it frequently is but on the binary scale "ID guaranteed to be routable IPv4
address"/"ID is just a number" - the Router ID is NOT an IPv4 address.
So, before you convince people that IPv6 Rtr ID is needed you must start
from discussing when and why Router ID is being used as IPv4 address in pure
IPv4 world. I believe this in other words is what Acee asking you.
Anton
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Acee,
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very simple: the
IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for advertising router
capabilities can be flooded across areas, however, only a 4-octect router ID is
carried in them. As a result, it’s hard for routers in one area to establish
correlations between IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area.
For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN session
with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6 addresses. When router
A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants
to know whether router B has the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before inserting an EL into
the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability TLV originated by router B
doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its own. As a result, it !
s hard fo
r router A to know the ELC of router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月6日 21:14
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Post by Xuxiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月5日 23:55
收件人: Acee Lindem; Xuxiaohu; George, Wes
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Xiaohu – what are precisely the situations that you think you need
this
IPv6 address?
Acee
if you're using router-id's as equivalency as an ipv4 unicast addresses.
you're doing so at your peril because there is zero assurance that
those actually map. the first time you have a router id of
11100000000000000000000000000101 well bummer.
The IPv6 router ID sub-TLV of the ISIS router capability TLV must carry a
"routable" IPv6 address. If the name of the sub-TLV seems confusing,
it can be changed to IPv6 address sub-TLV.
Independent of what you call it, you didn’t answer my question. Other
than TE, what the use cases where it is needed?
Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
I don't find the embedding of semantic meaning in router-ids to be
more compelling then it was in ip addresses.
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Wes,
Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very
simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for
advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas,
however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result,
it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations between
IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For
example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN
session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B
via
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has
the
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before>
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of router B.
Best regards,
Xiaohu
*发送时间:*2014年5月2日1:51
*收件人:*Xuxiaohu
*主题:*Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the
authors’s email addresses directly.
*Date: *Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
*Subject: *[sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in ISIS
and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This
has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are
copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I gave
them -
It is important to distinguish between places where a unique
identifier is needed, and by *convention* an IPv4 address assigned
to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places
where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the
protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action on).
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be unique
across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter, or is
the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to
something
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the value
isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are
easier
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP address)
but that value as a human-readable set of info does not necessarily
justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as we
move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must
merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all.
Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry
IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a
network.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be documented
in the draft.
There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique
identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has been
used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft
identifying this problem and discussing several solutions, including
simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically generating a
random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4,
either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another
standalone draft.
There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q=%
22
%5
Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)
I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on this.
Thanks,
Wes George
Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail
server,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
I have no control over it.
-----------
------------------------------------------------------------------
--
--
--
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner
Cable
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or
subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it
is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and
attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify
the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and
any
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
copy of this E-mail and any printout.
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf
Karsten Thomann
2014-05-09 08:57:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Xiaohu,

I think I've understand your problem now, but please don't call it a
Router ID, the router ID must not be an IP address.
To avoid any confusion about it please call it a router ip or router
address within the TLV.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understand your drafts right
you're not requesting a real IPv6 Router ID instead of the (arbitrary)
32bit ID, but a simple TLV to carry the routable IPv6 address of the
router which advertises the capability.

If I understand it right, we should maybe fix the text of the other rfc
to refect that it is an routable IP address, instead of a (possible)
arbitrary but unique Router ID.

Kind regards
Karsten
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Anton,
When ISIS capability TLVs are flooded across areas, routers in one area may need to establish correlations between IP addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B (identified by an IP address) has the ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet. In such case, it needs to contain at least one routable IP address in the capability TLV which has been flooded across area boundaries. In the IPv4 network, the 4-octect router ID field could contain such routable IPv4 address. However, in the IPv6 network, there is no counterpart field to contain a routable IPv6 address.
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月8日 22:49
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hello Xiaohu,
this whole thread started from George Wes stating that even in pure
IPv4 world Router ID in many protocols is NOT an IPv4 address. For convenience
it frequently is but on the binary scale "ID guaranteed to be routable IPv4
address"/"ID is just a number" - the Router ID is NOT an IPv4 address.
So, before you convince people that IPv6 Rtr ID is needed you must start
from discussing when and why Router ID is being used as IPv4 address in pure
IPv4 world. I believe this in other words is what Acee asking you.
Anton
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Acee,
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very simple: the
IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for advertising router
capabilities can be flooded across areas, however, only a 4-octect router ID is
carried in them. As a result, it’s hard for routers in one area to establish
correlations between IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area.
For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN session
with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6 addresses. When router
A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants
to know whether router B has the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before inserting an EL into
the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability TLV originated by router B
doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its own. As a result, it !
s hard fo
r router A to know the ELC of router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月6日 21:14
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Post by Xuxiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月5日 23:55
收件人: Acee Lindem; Xuxiaohu; George, Wes
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Xiaohu – what are precisely the situations that you think you need
this
IPv6 address?
Acee
if you're using router-id's as equivalency as an ipv4 unicast addresses.
you're doing so at your peril because there is zero assurance that
those actually map. the first time you have a router id of
11100000000000000000000000000101 well bummer.
The IPv6 router ID sub-TLV of the ISIS router capability TLV must carry a
"routable" IPv6 address. If the name of the sub-TLV seems confusing,
it can be changed to IPv6 address sub-TLV.
Independent of what you call it, you didn’t answer my question. Other
than TE, what the use cases where it is needed?
Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
I don't find the embedding of semantic meaning in router-ids to be
more compelling then it was in ip addresses.
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Wes,
Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very
simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for
advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas,
however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result,
it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations between
IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For
example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN
session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B
via
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has
the
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before>
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of router B.
Best regards,
Xiaohu
*发送时间:*2014年5月2日1:51
*收件人:*Xuxiaohu
*主题:*Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the
authors’s email addresses directly.
*Date: *Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
*Subject: *[sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in ISIS
and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This
has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are
copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I gave
them -
It is important to distinguish between places where a unique
identifier is needed, and by *convention* an IPv4 address assigned
to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places
where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the
protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action on).
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be unique
across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter, or is
the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to
something
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the value
isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are
easier
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP address)
but that value as a human-readable set of info does not necessarily
justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as we
move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must
merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all.
Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry
IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a
network.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be documented
in the draft.
There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique
identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has been
used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft
identifying this problem and discussing several solutions, including
simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically generating a
random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4,
either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another
standalone draft.
There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q=%
22
%5
Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)
I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on this.
Thanks,
Wes George
Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail
server,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
I have no control over it.
-----------
------------------------------------------------------------------
--
--
--
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner
Cable
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or
subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it
is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and
attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify
the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and
any
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
copy of this E-mail and any printout.
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
Xuxiaohu
2014-05-09 09:31:04 UTC
Permalink
Hi Karsten,

Your understanding is completely correct.

Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月9日 16:58
收件人: Xuxiaohu; Anton Smirnov
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Xiaohu,
I think I've understand your problem now, but please don't call it a Router ID, the
router ID must not be an IP address.
To avoid any confusion about it please call it a router ip or router address within
the TLV.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understand your drafts right you're not
requesting a real IPv6 Router ID instead of the (arbitrary) 32bit ID, but a simple
TLV to carry the routable IPv6 address of the router which advertises the
capability.
If I understand it right, we should maybe fix the text of the other rfc to refect
that it is an routable IP address, instead of a (possible) arbitrary but unique
Router ID.
Kind regards
Karsten
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Anton,
When ISIS capability TLVs are flooded across areas, routers in one area may
need to establish correlations between IP addresses and capabilities of routers in
another area. For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area. When router A needs to send
L3VPN traffic to router B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether
router B (identified by an IP address) has the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before inserting an EL into
the MPLS-SR packet. In such case, it needs to contain at least one routable IP
address in the capability TLV which has been flooded across area boundaries. In
the IPv4 network, the 4-octect router ID field could contain such routable IPv4
address. However, in the IPv6 network, there is no counterpart field to contain a
routable IPv6 address.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月8日 22:49
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hello Xiaohu,
this whole thread started from George Wes stating that even in pure
IPv4 world Router ID in many protocols is NOT an IPv4 address. For
convenience it frequently is but on the binary scale "ID guaranteed
to be routable IPv4 address"/"ID is just a number" - the Router ID is NOT an
IPv4 address.
Post by Xuxiaohu
So, before you convince people that IPv6 Rtr ID is needed you
must start from discussing when and why Router ID is being used as
IPv4 address in pure
IPv4 world. I believe this in other words is what Acee asking you.
Anton
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Acee,
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very simple: the
IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for advertising
router capabilities can be flooded across areas, however, only a
4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result, it’s hard for
routers in one area to establish correlations between IPv6 addresses and
capabilities of routers in another area.
Post by Xuxiaohu
For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability TLV
originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its own. As a result,
it !
Post by Xuxiaohu
s hard fo
r router A to know the ELC of router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月6日 21:14
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Post by Xuxiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月5日 23:55
收件人: Acee Lindem; Xuxiaohu; George, Wes
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Xiaohu – what are precisely the situations that you think you
need this
IPv6 address?
Acee
if you're using router-id's as equivalency as an ipv4 unicast addresses.
you're doing so at your peril because there is zero assurance
that those actually map. the first time you have a router id of
11100000000000000000000000000101 well bummer.
The IPv6 router ID sub-TLV of the ISIS router capability TLV must carry a
"routable" IPv6 address. If the name of the sub-TLV seems
confusing, it can be changed to IPv6 address sub-TLV.
Independent of what you call it, you didn’t answer my question.
Other than TE, what the use cases where it is needed?
Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
I don't find the embedding of semantic meaning in router-ids to
be more compelling then it was in ip addresses.
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Wes,
Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is
very
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used
for
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas,
however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result,
it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations
between
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For
example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B
via
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has
the
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before>
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the
Capability
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of
router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
*发送时间:*2014年5月2日1:51
*收件人:*Xuxiaohu
*主题:*Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the
authors’s email addresses directly.
*From: *<George>, "George, Wes"
*Date: *Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
*Subject: *[sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in
ISIS
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This
has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are
copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I
gave them -
It is important to distinguish between places where a unique
identifier is needed, and by *convention* an IPv4 address
assigned
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places
where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the
protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action
on).
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be
unique
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter,
or is
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to
something
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the
value
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are
easier
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP
address)
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
but that value as a human-readable set of info does not
necessarily
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as
we
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must
merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all.
Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry
IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a
network.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be
documented
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
in the draft.
There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique
identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has
been
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft
identifying this problem and discussing several solutions,
including
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically
generating a
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4,
either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another
standalone draft.
There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q
=%
22
%5
Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr
(see page 11)
I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on
this.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Thanks,
Wes George
Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail
server,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
I have no control over it.
-----------
----------------------------------------------------------------
--
--
--
--
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner
Cable
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or
subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This
E-mail is
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it
is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and
attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify
the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and
any
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
copy of this E-mail and any printout.
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i
Karsten Thomann
2014-05-09 09:49:30 UTC
Permalink
Hi Xuxiaohu,

I think that the question of the purpose of the drafts is clear now and
I hope George can confirm it.
The problem I would like to get addressed is the term Router ID in the
drafts, as the Router ID is not necessarily a routable address, if
possible with an update to the rfc also for the IPv4 "Router ID" in the
TLV...

Or do you (or someone else) have any objections or problems with a
change of the term to clarify that it is not the router ID?

Kind regards
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Karsten,
Your understanding is completely correct.
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月9日 16:58
收件人: Xuxiaohu; Anton Smirnov
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Xiaohu,
I think I've understand your problem now, but please don't call it a Router ID, the
router ID must not be an IP address.
To avoid any confusion about it please call it a router ip or router address within
the TLV.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understand your drafts right you're not
requesting a real IPv6 Router ID instead of the (arbitrary) 32bit ID, but a simple
TLV to carry the routable IPv6 address of the router which advertises the
capability.
If I understand it right, we should maybe fix the text of the other rfc to refect
that it is an routable IP address, instead of a (possible) arbitrary but unique
Router ID.
Kind regards
Karsten
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Anton,
When ISIS capability TLVs are flooded across areas, routers in one area may
need to establish correlations between IP addresses and capabilities of routers in
another area. For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area. When router A needs to send
L3VPN traffic to router B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether
router B (identified by an IP address) has the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before inserting an EL into
the MPLS-SR packet. In such case, it needs to contain at least one routable IP
address in the capability TLV which has been flooded across area boundaries. In
the IPv4 network, the 4-octect router ID field could contain such routable IPv4
address. However, in the IPv6 network, there is no counterpart field to contain a
routable IPv6 address.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月8日 22:49
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hello Xiaohu,
this whole thread started from George Wes stating that even in pure
IPv4 world Router ID in many protocols is NOT an IPv4 address. For
convenience it frequently is but on the binary scale "ID guaranteed
to be routable IPv4 address"/"ID is just a number" - the Router ID is NOT an
IPv4 address.
Post by Xuxiaohu
So, before you convince people that IPv6 Rtr ID is needed you
must start from discussing when and why Router ID is being used as
IPv4 address in pure
IPv4 world. I believe this in other words is what Acee asking you.
Anton
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Acee,
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very simple: the
IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for advertising
router capabilities can be flooded across areas, however, only a
4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result, it’s hard for
routers in one area to establish correlations between IPv6 addresses and
capabilities of routers in another area.
Post by Xuxiaohu
For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability TLV
originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its own. As a result,
it !
Post by Xuxiaohu
s hard fo
r router A to know the ELC of router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月6日 21:14
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Post by Xuxiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月5日 23:55
收件人: Acee Lindem; Xuxiaohu; George, Wes
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Xiaohu – what are precisely the situations that you think you
need this
IPv6 address?
Acee
if you're using router-id's as equivalency as an ipv4 unicast addresses.
you're doing so at your peril because there is zero assurance
that those actually map. the first time you have a router id of
11100000000000000000000000000101 well bummer.
The IPv6 router ID sub-TLV of the ISIS router capability TLV must carry a
"routable" IPv6 address. If the name of the sub-TLV seems
confusing, it can be changed to IPv6 address sub-TLV.
Independent of what you call it, you didn’t answer my question.
Other than TE, what the use cases where it is needed?
Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
I don't find the embedding of semantic meaning in router-ids to
be more compelling then it was in ip addresses.
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Wes,
Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is
very
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used
for
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas,
however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result,
it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations
between
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For
example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B
via
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has
the
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before>
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the
Capability
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of
router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
*发送时间:*2014年5月2日1:51
*收件人:*Xuxiaohu
*主题:*Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the
authors’s email addresses directly.
*From: *<George>, "George, Wes"
*Date: *Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
*Subject: *[sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in
ISIS
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This
has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are
copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I
gave them -
It is important to distinguish between places where a unique
identifier is needed, and by *convention* an IPv4 address
assigned
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places
where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the
protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action
on).
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be
unique
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter,
or is
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to
something
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the
value
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are
easier
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP
address)
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
but that value as a human-readable set of info does not
necessarily
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as
we
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must
merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all.
Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry
IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a
network.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be
documented
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
in the draft.
There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique
identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has
been
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft
identifying this problem and discussing several solutions,
including
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically
generating a
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4,
either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another
standalone draft.
There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q
=%
22
%5
Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr
(see page 11)
I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on
this.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Thanks,
Wes George
Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail
server,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
I have no control over it.
-----------
----------------------------------------------------------------
--
--
--
--
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner
Cable
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or
subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This
E-mail is
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it
is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and
attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify
the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and
any
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
copy of this E-mail and any printout.
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg
Xuxiaohu
2014-05-09 09:56:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Karsten,

The term "routable IP address " looks good to me.

Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月9日 17:50
收件人: Xuxiaohu; Anton Smirnov
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Xuxiaohu,
I think that the question of the purpose of the drafts is clear now and I hope
George can confirm it.
The problem I would like to get addressed is the term Router ID in the drafts, as
the Router ID is not necessarily a routable address, if possible with an update to
the rfc also for the IPv4 "Router ID" in the TLV...
Or do you (or someone else) have any objections or problems with a change of
the term to clarify that it is not the router ID?
Kind regards
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Karsten,
Your understanding is completely correct.
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月9日 16:58
收件人: Xuxiaohu; Anton Smirnov
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Xiaohu,
I think I've understand your problem now, but please don't call it a
Router ID, the router ID must not be an IP address.
To avoid any confusion about it please call it a router ip or router
address within the TLV.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understand your drafts right
you're not requesting a real IPv6 Router ID instead of the
(arbitrary) 32bit ID, but a simple TLV to carry the routable IPv6
address of the router which advertises the capability.
If I understand it right, we should maybe fix the text of the other
rfc to refect that it is an routable IP address, instead of a
(possible) arbitrary but unique Router ID.
Kind regards
Karsten
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Anton,
When ISIS capability TLVs are flooded across areas, routers in one area may
need to establish correlations between IP addresses and capabilities
of routers in another area. For example, assume IS-IS router A in one
area has established a L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another
area. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via a
MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B (identified
by an IP address) has the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet. In such case, it needs to
contain at least one routable IP address in the capability TLV which
has been flooded across area boundaries. In the IPv4 network, the
4-octect router ID field could contain such routable IPv4 address.
However, in the IPv6 network, there is no counterpart field to contain a
routable IPv6 address.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月8日 22:49
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hello Xiaohu,
this whole thread started from George Wes stating that even in pure
IPv4 world Router ID in many protocols is NOT an IPv4 address. For
convenience it frequently is but on the binary scale "ID guaranteed
to be routable IPv4 address"/"ID is just a number" - the Router ID is NOT an
IPv4 address.
Post by Xuxiaohu
So, before you convince people that IPv6 Rtr ID is needed you
must start from discussing when and why Router ID is being used as
IPv4 address in pure
IPv4 world. I believe this in other words is what Acee asking you.
Anton
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Acee,
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very simple: the
IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for advertising
router capabilities can be flooded across areas, however, only a
4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result, it’s hard for
routers in one area to establish correlations between IPv6 addresses and
capabilities of routers in another area.
Post by Xuxiaohu
For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own
IPv6 addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router
B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has
the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result,
it !
Post by Xuxiaohu
s hard fo
r router A to know the ELC of router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月6日 21:14
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Post by Xuxiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月5日 23:55
收件人: Acee Lindem; Xuxiaohu; George, Wes
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Xiaohu – what are precisely the situations that you think you
need this
IPv6 address?
Acee
if you're using router-id's as equivalency as an ipv4 unicast addresses.
you're doing so at your peril because there is zero assurance
that those actually map. the first time you have a router id of
11100000000000000000000000000101 well bummer.
The IPv6 router ID sub-TLV of the ISIS router capability TLV must carry a
"routable" IPv6 address. If the name of the sub-TLV seems
confusing, it can be changed to IPv6 address sub-TLV.
Independent of what you call it, you didn’t answer my question.
Other than TE, what the use cases where it is needed?
Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
I don't find the embedding of semantic meaning in router-ids to
be more compelling then it was in ip addresses.
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Wes,
Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00
and
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is
very
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used
for
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas,
however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a
result,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations
between
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area.
For
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has
established a
L3VPN
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own
IPv6
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B
via
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has
the
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before>
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the
Capability
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address
of its
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of
router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
*发件人:*George, Wes
*发送时间:*2014年5月2日1:51
*收件人:*Xuxiaohu
*主题:*Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with
the
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
authors’s email addresses directly.
*From: *<George>, "George, Wes"
*Date: *Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
*Subject: *[sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in
ISIS
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets.
This
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft
are
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what
I gave them -
It is important to distinguish between places where a unique
identifier is needed, and by *convention* an IPv4 address
assigned
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs.
places
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to
the
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action
on).
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be
unique
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter,
or is
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to
something
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the
value
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are
easier
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP
address)
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
but that value as a human-readable set of info does not
necessarily
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as
we
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols
must
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at
all.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry
IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a
network.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be
documented
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
in the draft.
There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit
unique
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has
been
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft
identifying this problem and discussing several solutions,
including
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically
generating a
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in
Sunset4,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as
another
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
standalone draft.
There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr
&q
=%
22
%5
Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)
I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on
this.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Thanks,
Wes George
Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail
server,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
I have no control over it.
-----------
--------------------------------------------------------------
--
--
--
--
--
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner
Cable
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or
subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This
E-mail is
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to
which it
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this
E-mail,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and
attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please
notify
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and
any
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
copy of this E-mail and any printout.
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/
Uma Chunduri
2014-05-09 20:55:47 UTC
Permalink
Few comments:

1. Yes, router ID could be just a number in some protocols and it's a routable IP address in some protocols but conditionally optional (IS-IS). In that sense it's good to if we don't use that term.
2. This topic comes again and again but without association to TE it's good to have a TLV/SUB-TLV defined which represents a routable IP address of a router. Few months back while discussing RLFA
I proposed this http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtgwg/current/msg04316.html (towards the end of the message).
3. Other option is as suggested by Les just relax it non-TE too and re-use the existing TLVs (5305 and 6119) for this purpose; as though these are Router ID's, these are routable.
--
Uma C.


-----Original Message-----
From: OSPF [mailto:ospf-***@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Xuxiaohu
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2014 2:57 AM
To: Karsten Thomann; Anton Smirnov
Cc: isis-***@ietf.org; ***@chinamobile.com; George, Wes; joel jaeggli; OSPF List; ***@ietf.org; ***@chinamobile.com
Subject: [OSPF] 答复: [Isis-wg] 答复: 答复: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

Hi Karsten,

The term "routable IP address " looks good to me.

Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月9日 17:50
收件人: Xuxiaohu; Anton Smirnov
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Xuxiaohu,
I think that the question of the purpose of the drafts is clear now
and I hope George can confirm it.
The problem I would like to get addressed is the term Router ID in the
drafts, as the Router ID is not necessarily a routable address, if
possible with an update to the rfc also for the IPv4 "Router ID" in the TLV...
Or do you (or someone else) have any objections or problems with a
change of the term to clarify that it is not the router ID?
Kind regards
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Karsten,
Your understanding is completely correct.
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月9日 16:58
收件人: Xuxiaohu; Anton Smirnov
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Xiaohu,
I think I've understand your problem now, but please don't call it
a Router ID, the router ID must not be an IP address.
To avoid any confusion about it please call it a router ip or
router address within the TLV.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understand your drafts
right you're not requesting a real IPv6 Router ID instead of the
(arbitrary) 32bit ID, but a simple TLV to carry the routable IPv6
address of the router which advertises the capability.
If I understand it right, we should maybe fix the text of the other
rfc to refect that it is an routable IP address, instead of a
(possible) arbitrary but unique Router ID.
Kind regards
Karsten
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Anton,
When ISIS capability TLVs are flooded across areas, routers in one area may
need to establish correlations between IP addresses and
capabilities of routers in another area. For example, assume IS-IS
router A in one area has established a L3VPN session with IS-IS
router B in another area. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic
to router B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether
router B (identified by an IP address) has the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet. In such case, it needs to
contain at least one routable IP address in the capability TLV
which has been flooded across area boundaries. In the IPv4 network,
the 4-octect router ID field could contain such routable IPv4 address.
However, in the IPv6 network, there is no counterpart field to contain a
routable IPv6 address.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月8日 22:49
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hello Xiaohu,
this whole thread started from George Wes stating that even in pure
IPv4 world Router ID in many protocols is NOT an IPv4 address.
For convenience it frequently is but on the binary scale "ID
guaranteed to be routable IPv4 address"/"ID is just a number" -
the Router ID is NOT an
IPv4 address.
Post by Xuxiaohu
So, before you convince people that IPv6 Rtr ID is needed
you must start from discussing when and why Router ID is being
used as
IPv4 address in pure
IPv4 world. I believe this in other words is what Acee asking you.
Anton
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Acee,
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very
simple: the
IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for
advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas,
however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a
result, it’s hard for routers in one area to establish
correlations between IPv6 addresses and
capabilities of routers in another area.
Post by Xuxiaohu
For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own
IPv6 addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to
router B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether
router B has the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result,
it !
Post by Xuxiaohu
s hard fo
r router A to know the ELC of router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月6日 21:14
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Post by Xuxiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月5日 23:55
收件人: Acee Lindem; Xuxiaohu; George, Wes
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Xiaohu – what are precisely the situations that you think
you need this
IPv6 address?
Acee
if you're using router-id's as equivalency as an ipv4 unicast addresses.
you're doing so at your peril because there is zero assurance
that those actually map. the first time you have a router id of
11100000000000000000000000000101 well bummer.
The IPv6 router ID sub-TLV of the ISIS router capability TLV must carry a
"routable" IPv6 address. If the name of the sub-TLV seems
confusing, it can be changed to IPv6 address sub-TLV.
Independent of what you call it, you didn’t answer my question.
Other than TE, what the use cases where it is needed?
Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
I don't find the embedding of semantic meaning in router-ids
to be more compelling then it was in ip addresses.
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Wes,
Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00
and
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is
very
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used
for
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas,
however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a
result,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations
between
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area.
For
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has
established a
L3VPN
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own
IPv6
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B
via
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has
the
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before>
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the
Capability
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address
of its
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of
router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
*发件人:*George, Wes
*发送时间:*2014年5月2日1:51
*收件人:*Xuxiaohu
*主题:*Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with
the
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
authors’s email addresses directly.
*From: *<George>, "George, Wes"
*Date: *Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
*Subject: *[sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in
ISIS
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets.
This
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft
are
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to
what I gave them -
It is important to distinguish between places where a unique
identifier is needed, and by *convention* an IPv4 address
assigned
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs.
places
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
where the actual IP address has some sort of
importance to
the
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action
on).
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be
unique
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter,
or is
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
the protocol requirement that the value must
correspond to
something
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the
value
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are
easier
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP
address)
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
but that value as a human-readable set of info does not
necessarily
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as
we
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols
must
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at
all.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry
IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a
network.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be
documented
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
in the draft.
There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit
unique
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has
been
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft
identifying this problem and discussing several solutions,
including
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically
generating a
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in
Sunset4,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as
another
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
standalone draft.
There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=i
dr
&q
=%
22
%5
Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)
I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on
this.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Thanks,
Wes George
Anything below this line has been added by my
company’s mail
server,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
I have no control over it.
-----------
------------------------------------------------------------
--
--
--
--
--
--
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner
Cable
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or
subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This
E-mail is
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to
which it
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this
E-mail,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and
attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please
notify
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and
any
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
copy of this E-mail and any printout.
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
***@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/o
Acee Lindem
2014-05-09 12:11:27 UTC
Permalink
Xiaohu,

The reason the use case is confusing is that the term L3VPN is commonly used to refer to RFC 4364 VPNs. In your use case, you are hypothesizing something for Segment Routed L3VPNs that I’m not sure is needed with MPLS. Can you add some real use cases to your drafts with justification that it is needed?

Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Karsten,
Your understanding is completely correct.
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月9日 16:58
收件人: Xuxiaohu; Anton Smirnov
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Xiaohu,
I think I've understand your problem now, but please don't call it a Router ID, the
router ID must not be an IP address.
To avoid any confusion about it please call it a router ip or router address within
the TLV.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understand your drafts right you're not
requesting a real IPv6 Router ID instead of the (arbitrary) 32bit ID, but a simple
TLV to carry the routable IPv6 address of the router which advertises the
capability.
If I understand it right, we should maybe fix the text of the other rfc to refect
that it is an routable IP address, instead of a (possible) arbitrary but unique
Router ID.
Kind regards
Karsten
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Anton,
When ISIS capability TLVs are flooded across areas, routers in one area may
need to establish correlations between IP addresses and capabilities of routers in
another area. For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area. When router A needs to send
L3VPN traffic to router B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether
router B (identified by an IP address) has the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before inserting an EL into
the MPLS-SR packet. In such case, it needs to contain at least one routable IP
address in the capability TLV which has been flooded across area boundaries. In
the IPv4 network, the 4-octect router ID field could contain such routable IPv4
address. However, in the IPv6 network, there is no counterpart field to contain a
routable IPv6 address.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月8日 22:49
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hello Xiaohu,
this whole thread started from George Wes stating that even in pure
IPv4 world Router ID in many protocols is NOT an IPv4 address. For
convenience it frequently is but on the binary scale "ID guaranteed
to be routable IPv4 address"/"ID is just a number" - the Router ID is NOT an
IPv4 address.
Post by Xuxiaohu
So, before you convince people that IPv6 Rtr ID is needed you
must start from discussing when and why Router ID is being used as
IPv4 address in pure
IPv4 world. I believe this in other words is what Acee asking you.
Anton
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Acee,
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very simple: the
IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for advertising
router capabilities can be flooded across areas, however, only a
4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result, it’s hard for
routers in one area to establish correlations between IPv6 addresses and
capabilities of routers in another area.
Post by Xuxiaohu
For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability TLV
originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its own. As a result,
it !
Post by Xuxiaohu
s hard fo
r router A to know the ELC of router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月6日 21:14
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Post by Xuxiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月5日 23:55
收件人: Acee Lindem; Xuxiaohu; George, Wes
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Xiaohu – what are precisely the situations that you think you
need this
IPv6 address?
Acee
if you're using router-id's as equivalency as an ipv4 unicast addresses.
you're doing so at your peril because there is zero assurance
that those actually map. the first time you have a router id of
11100000000000000000000000000101 well bummer.
The IPv6 router ID sub-TLV of the ISIS router capability TLV must carry a
"routable" IPv6 address. If the name of the sub-TLV seems
confusing, it can be changed to IPv6 address sub-TLV.
Independent of what you call it, you didn’t answer my question.
Other than TE, what the use cases where it is needed?
Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
I don't find the embedding of semantic meaning in router-ids to
be more compelling then it was in ip addresses.
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Wes,
Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is
very
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used
for
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas,
however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result,
it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations
between
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For
example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B
via
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has
the
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before>
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the
Capability
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of
router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
*发送时间:*2014年5月2日1:51
*收件人:*Xuxiaohu
*主题:*Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the
authors’s email addresses directly.
*From: *<George>, "George, Wes"
*Date: *Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
*Subject: *[sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in
ISIS
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This
has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are
copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I
gave them -
It is important to distinguish between places where a unique
identifier is needed, and by *convention* an IPv4 address
assigned
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places
where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the
protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action
on).
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be
unique
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter,
or is
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to
something
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the
value
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are
easier
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP
address)
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
but that value as a human-readable set of info does not
necessarily
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as
we
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must
merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all.
Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry
IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a
network.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be
documented
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
in the draft.
There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique
identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has
been
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft
identifying this problem and discussing several solutions,
including
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically
generating a
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4,
either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another
standalone draft.
There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q
=%
22
%5
Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)
I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on
this.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Thanks,
Wes George
Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail
server,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
I have no control over it.
-----------
----------------------------------------------------------------
--
--
--
--
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner
Cable
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or
subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This
E-mail is
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it
is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and
attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify
the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and
any
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
copy of this E-mail and any printout.
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
htt
Uma Chunduri
2014-05-09 21:00:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi Acee,

You asked a good question.

Time and again it's required to identify the node to establish dynamic connection, without having to worry if the route is hosted by
the node or not (same properties as of IS-IS TLV 134 and TLV 140, i.e., routable IP addresses, except not specific to TE)

I can see these -
1. RLFA TLDP session without having to worry a PQ node supports TE or not
2. Orchestration software on a controller or an application which is having access to
the topology database of the network may determine the node IP address without having to go through the hoops (to determine if it's redistributed or leaked etc..)
with this TLV.
--
Uma C.


-----Original Message-----
From: Isis-wg [mailto:isis-wg-***@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Acee Lindem
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2014 5:11 AM
To: Xuxiaohu
Cc: isis-***@ietf.org; Wes George; Anton Smirnov; ***@chinamobile.com; Joel jaeggli; OSPF List; ***@ietf.org; ***@chinamobile.com
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

Xiaohu,

The reason the use case is confusing is that the term L3VPN is commonly used to refer to RFC 4364 VPNs. In your use case, you are hypothesizing something for Segment Routed L3VPNs that I’m not sure is needed with MPLS. Can you add some real use cases to your drafts with justification that it is needed?

Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Karsten,
Your understanding is completely correct.
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月9日 16:58
收件人: Xuxiaohu; Anton Smirnov
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Xiaohu,
I think I've understand your problem now, but please don't call it a
Router ID, the router ID must not be an IP address.
To avoid any confusion about it please call it a router ip or router
address within the TLV.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understand your drafts right
you're not requesting a real IPv6 Router ID instead of the
(arbitrary) 32bit ID, but a simple TLV to carry the routable IPv6
address of the router which advertises the capability.
If I understand it right, we should maybe fix the text of the other
rfc to refect that it is an routable IP address, instead of a
(possible) arbitrary but unique Router ID.
Kind regards
Karsten
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Anton,
When ISIS capability TLVs are flooded across areas, routers in one area may
need to establish correlations between IP addresses and capabilities
of routers in another area. For example, assume IS-IS router A in one
area has established a L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another
area. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via a
MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B (identified
by an IP address) has the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet. In such case, it needs to
contain at least one routable IP address in the capability TLV which
has been flooded across area boundaries. In the IPv4 network, the
4-octect router ID field could contain such routable IPv4 address.
However, in the IPv6 network, there is no counterpart field to contain a routable IPv6 address.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月8日 22:49
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hello Xiaohu,
this whole thread started from George Wes stating that even in pure
IPv4 world Router ID in many protocols is NOT an IPv4 address. For
convenience it frequently is but on the binary scale "ID guaranteed
to be routable IPv4 address"/"ID is just a number" - the Router ID is NOT an
IPv4 address.
Post by Xuxiaohu
So, before you convince people that IPv6 Rtr ID is needed you
must start from discussing when and why Router ID is being used as
IPv4 address in pure
IPv4 world. I believe this in other words is what Acee asking you.
Anton
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Acee,
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very simple: the
IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for advertising
router capabilities can be flooded across areas, however, only a
4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result, it’s hard for
routers in one area to establish correlations between IPv6
addresses and
capabilities of routers in another area.
Post by Xuxiaohu
For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own
IPv6 addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router
B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has
the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result,
it !
Post by Xuxiaohu
s hard fo
r router A to know the ELC of router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月6日 21:14
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Post by Xuxiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月5日 23:55
收件人: Acee Lindem; Xuxiaohu; George, Wes
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Xiaohu – what are precisely the situations that you think you
need this
IPv6 address?
Acee
if you're using router-id's as equivalency as an ipv4 unicast addresses.
you're doing so at your peril because there is zero assurance
that those actually map. the first time you have a router id of
11100000000000000000000000000101 well bummer.
The IPv6 router ID sub-TLV of the ISIS router capability TLV must carry a
"routable" IPv6 address. If the name of the sub-TLV seems
confusing, it can be changed to IPv6 address sub-TLV.
Independent of what you call it, you didn’t answer my question.
Other than TE, what the use cases where it is needed?
Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
I don't find the embedding of semantic meaning in router-ids to
be more compelling then it was in ip addresses.
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Wes,
Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is
very
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used
for
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas,
however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result,
it’s hard for routers in one area to establish
correlations
between
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For
example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B
via
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has
the
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before>
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the
Capability
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of
router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
*发送时间:*2014年5月2日1:51
*收件人:*Xuxiaohu
*主题:*Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the
authors’s email addresses directly.
*From: *<George>, "George, Wes"
*Date: *Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
*Subject: *[sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in
ISIS
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This
has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are
copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I
gave them -
It is important to distinguish between places where a unique
identifier is needed, and by *convention* an IPv4 address
assigned
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places
where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the
protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action
on).
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be
unique
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter,
or is
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to
something
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the
value
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are
easier
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP
address)
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
but that value as a human-readable set of info does not
necessarily
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
justify changes to the protocol to support that
convention as
we
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must
merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all.
Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry
IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a
network.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be
documented
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
in the draft.
There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique
identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has
been
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft
identifying this problem and discussing several solutions,
including
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically
generating a
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4,
either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another
standalone draft.
There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr
&q
=%
22
%5
Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)
I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on
this.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Thanks,
Wes George
Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail
server,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
I have no control over it.
-----------
--------------------------------------------------------------
--
--
--
--
--
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner
Cable
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or
subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This
E-mail is
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it
is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and
attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify
the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and
any
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
copy of this E-mail and any printout.
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
Isis-***@ietf.org
Acee Lindem
2014-05-09 22:11:22 UTC
Permalink
Hi Uma,

See inline.

-----Original Message-----
From: Uma Chunduri <***@ericsson.com>
Date: Friday, May 9, 2014 2:00 PM
To: Ericsson <***@ericsson.com>, Xuxiaohu <***@huawei.com>
Cc: "isis-***@ietf.org" <isis-***@ietf.org>, Wes George
<***@twcable.com>, Anton Smirnov <***@cisco.com>,
"***@chinamobile.com" <***@chinamobile.com>, Joel jaeggli
<***@bogus.com>, OSPF - OSPF WG List <***@ietf.org>,
"***@ietf.org" <***@ietf.org>, "***@chinamobile.com"
<***@chinamobile.com>
Subject: RE: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Acee,
You asked a good question.
Time and again it's required to identify the node to establish dynamic
connection, without having to worry if the route is hosted by
the node or not (same properties as of IS-IS TLV 134 and TLV 140, i.e.,
routable IP addresses, except not specific to TE)
I can see these -
1. RLFA TLDP session without having to worry a PQ node supports TE or not
I don't think this is a good use case. You need to have an the AF topology
in order to compute the remote LFA. Also, you may inherit remote LFA
targets for external and prefixes from other areas but you will never
compute remote LFA targets in other areas (at least not with today's
algorithms).
Post by Xuxiaohu
2. Orchestration software on a controller or an application which is having access to
the topology database of the network may determine the node IP address
without having to go through the hoops (to determine if it's
redistributed or leaked etc..)
with this TLV.
Can you be more precise? If the orchestration application is going to
orchestrate across multiple areas, I would hope it would have visibility
to the topologies of these areas.


Thanks,
Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
--
Uma C.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2014 5:11 AM
To: Xuxiaohu
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Xiaohu,
The reason the use case is confusing is that the term L3VPN is commonly
used to refer to RFC 4364 VPNs. In your use case, you are hypothesizing
something for Segment Routed L3VPNs that I’m not sure is needed with
MPLS. Can you add some real use cases to your drafts with justification
that it is needed?
Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Karsten,
Your understanding is completely correct.
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月9日 16:58
收件人: Xuxiaohu; Anton Smirnov
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Xiaohu,
I think I've understand your problem now, but please don't call it a
Router ID, the router ID must not be an IP address.
To avoid any confusion about it please call it a router ip or router
address within the TLV.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understand your drafts right
you're not requesting a real IPv6 Router ID instead of the
(arbitrary) 32bit ID, but a simple TLV to carry the routable IPv6
address of the router which advertises the capability.
If I understand it right, we should maybe fix the text of the other
rfc to refect that it is an routable IP address, instead of a
(possible) arbitrary but unique Router ID.
Kind regards
Karsten
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Anton,
When ISIS capability TLVs are flooded across areas, routers in one area may
need to establish correlations between IP addresses and capabilities
of routers in another area. For example, assume IS-IS router A in one
area has established a L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another
area. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via a
MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B (identified
by an IP address) has the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet. In such case, it needs to
contain at least one routable IP address in the capability TLV which
has been flooded across area boundaries. In the IPv4 network, the
4-octect router ID field could contain such routable IPv4 address.
However, in the IPv6 network, there is no counterpart field to contain
a routable IPv6 address.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月8日 22:49
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hello Xiaohu,
this whole thread started from George Wes stating that even in pure
IPv4 world Router ID in many protocols is NOT an IPv4 address. For
convenience it frequently is but on the binary scale "ID guaranteed
to be routable IPv4 address"/"ID is just a number" - the Router ID is NOT an
IPv4 address.
Post by Xuxiaohu
So, before you convince people that IPv6 Rtr ID is needed you
must start from discussing when and why Router ID is being used as
IPv4 address in pure
IPv4 world. I believe this in other words is what Acee asking you.
Anton
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Acee,
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very simple: the
IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for advertising
router capabilities can be flooded across areas, however, only a
4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result, it’s hard for
routers in one area to establish correlations between IPv6
addresses and
capabilities of routers in another area.
Post by Xuxiaohu
For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own
IPv6 addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router
B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has
the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result,
it !
Post by Xuxiaohu
s hard fo
r router A to know the ELC of router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月6日 21:14
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Post by Xuxiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月5日 23:55
收件人: Acee Lindem; Xuxiaohu; George, Wes
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Xiaohu – what are precisely the situations that you think you
need this
IPv6 address?
Acee
if you're using router-id's as equivalency as an ipv4 unicast addresses.
you're doing so at your peril because there is zero assurance
that those actually map. the first time you have a router id of
11100000000000000000000000000101 well bummer.
The IPv6 router ID sub-TLV of the ISIS router capability TLV must carry a
"routable" IPv6 address. If the name of the sub-TLV seems
confusing, it can be changed to IPv6 address sub-TLV.
Independent of what you call it, you didn’t answer my question.
Other than TE, what the use cases where it is needed?
Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
I don't find the embedding of semantic meaning in router-ids to
be more compelling then it was in ip addresses.
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Wes,
Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is
very
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used
for
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas,
however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result,
it’s hard for routers in one area to establish
correlations
between
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For
example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B
via
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has
the
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before>
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the
Capability
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of
router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
*发送时间:*2014年5月2日1:51
*收件人:*Xuxiaohu
*主题:*Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the
authors’s email addresses directly.
*From: *<George>, "George, Wes"
*Date: *Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
*Subject: *[sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in
ISIS
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This
has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are
copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I
gave them -
It is important to distinguish between places where a unique
identifier is needed, and by *convention* an IPv4 address
assigned
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places
where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the
protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action
on).
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be
unique
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter,
or is
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to
something
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the
value
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are
easier
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP
address)
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
but that value as a human-readable set of info does not
necessarily
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
justify changes to the protocol to support that
convention as
we
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must
merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all.
Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry
IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a
network.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be
documented
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
in the draft.
There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique
identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has
been
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft
identifying this problem and discussing several solutions,
including
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically
generating a
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4,
either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another
standalone draft.
There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr
&q
=%
22
%5
Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr
(see page 11)
I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on
this.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Thanks,
Wes George
Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail
server,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
I have no control over it.
-----------
--------------------------------------------------------------
--
--
--
--
--
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner
Cable
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or
subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This
E-mail is
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it
is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination,
distribution,
copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and
attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify
the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and
any
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
copy of this E-mail and any printout.
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
https://www.ietf.org
Uma Chunduri
2014-05-10 00:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi Acee,
Post by Uma Chunduri
I can see these -
1. RLFA TLDP session without having to worry a PQ node supports TE or not
I don't think this is a good use case. You need to have an the AF topology in order to compute the remote LFA. Also, you may inherit remote LFA targets for external and prefixes from other areas but you will never compute remote LFA targets in other areas (at least not with today's algorithms).

[Uma]: It doesn't have to be a different area. Take a simplest case of one area or an L2 domain; after having computed all the PQ nodes in that area/domain if the PQ node doesn't support TE and doesn't advertise router ID (TLV 134) which IP address you would pick for TLDP session ? You can't reliably know from the advertised prefixes from the node that it is hosted by the node if router ID is not emitted by the node (as it doesn't support TE).
Post by Uma Chunduri
2. Orchestration software on a controller or an application which is having access to
the topology database of the network may determine the node IP
address without having to go through the hoops (to determine if it's
redistributed or leaked etc..)
with this TLV.
Can you be more precise? If the orchestration application is going to orchestrate across multiple areas, I would hope it would have visibility to the topologies of these areas.

[Uma]: Even for a same area or domain having a node advertise it's loopback as router ID without relation any relation to TE (supported or not) is a benefit in this case.
The ability of an application on a controller to know this easily is a huge advantage.
Also there could be multiple loopback and each for different purposes. For e.g. a PCE on a controller with https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pceps can know PCC address
with a firewall port/IP opened on the router for TLS connection. It would be great this can happen easily and automatically.
--
Uma C.
Acee Lindem
2014-05-10 01:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Hi Uma,

On May 9, 2014, at 8:03 PM, Uma Chunduri <***@ericsson.com<mailto:***@ericsson.com>> wrote:

Hi Acee,
Post by Uma Chunduri
I can see these -
1. RLFA TLDP session without having to worry a PQ node supports TE or not
I don't think this is a good use case. You need to have an the AF topology in order to compute the remote LFA. Also, you may inherit remote LFA targets for external and prefixes from other areas but you will never compute remote LFA targets in other areas (at least not with today's algorithms).

[Uma]: It doesn't have to be a different area. Take a simplest case of one area or an L2 domain; after having computed all the PQ nodes in that area/domain if the PQ node doesn't support TE and doesn't advertise router ID (TLV 134) which IP address you would pick for TLDP session ? You can't reliably know from the advertised prefixes from the node that it is hosted by the node if router ID is not emitted by the node (as it doesn't support TE).

The only advantage I can see is that a router can explicitly specify which local address it wants to use for targeted LFA sessions.
Post by Uma Chunduri
2. Orchestration software on a controller or an application which is having access to
the topology database of the network may determine the node IP
address without having to go through the hoops (to determine if it's
redistributed or leaked etc..)
with this TLV.
Can you be more precise? If the orchestration application is going to orchestrate across multiple areas, I would hope it would have visibility to the topologies of these areas.

[Uma]: Even for a same area or domain having a node advertise it's loopback as router ID without relation any relation to TE (supported or not) is a benefit in this case.
The ability of an application on a controller to know this easily is a huge advantage.
Also there could be multiple loopback and each for different purposes. For e.g. a PCE on a controller with https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pceps can know PCC address
with a firewall port/IP opened on the router for TLS connection. It would be great this can happen easily and automatically.

I don¡Št think anyone would have a firewall within an IGP routing domain. Hence, it would be the same purported advantage as above.

Thanks,
Acee
--
Uma C.
Joel M. Halpern
2014-05-12 02:41:45 UTC
Permalink
(Only to Acee and Uma. I will let you two sort this out on the list.)

Reading this thread, it look's to me like whatever uses this has, they
are not related to the router ID.
So if there is anything here at all, it is some other service address
advertisement.

Uma, I would point out that currently one can not assume that a received
router ID is a usqble address. Hence, there has to be an upgrade to the
advertising router to indicate this new usage. If there is an upgrade,
then most of the use cases are addressed either by upgrading to the
feature you really want, or by some form of service address
advertisement. Router ID does not seem to be the right hook.

Yours,
Joel
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Acee,
My comments inline [Uma1]
--
Uma C.
*From:*Acee Lindem
*Sent:* Friday, May 09, 2014 6:47 PM
*To:* Uma Chunduri
*Subject:* Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Uma,
Hi Acee,
Post by Uma Chunduri
I can see these -
1. RLFA TLDP session without having to worry a PQ node supports TE or
not
I don't think this is a good use case. You need to have an the AF
topology in order to compute the remote LFA. Also, you may inherit
remote LFA targets for external and prefixes from other areas but you
will never compute remote LFA targets in other areas (at least not with
today's algorithms).
[Uma]: It doesn't have to be a different area. Take a simplest case of
one area or an L2 domain; after having computed all the PQ nodes in that
area/domain if the PQ node doesn't support TE and doesn't advertise
router ID (TLV 134) which IP address you would pick for TLDP session ?
You can't reliably know from the advertised prefixes from the node that
it is hosted by the node if router ID is not emitted by the node (as it
doesn't support TE).
The only advantage I can see is that a router can explicitly specify
which local address it wants to use for targeted LFA sessions.
[Uma1]: Yes Acee. This is more practical way and a separate IP can be
hosted for this and this has to be advertised as “router IP”
Post by Uma Chunduri
2. Orchestration software on a controller or an application which is
having access to
the topology database of the network may determine the node IP
address without having to go through the hoops (to determine if it's
redistributed or leaked etc..)
with this TLV.
Can you be more precise? If the orchestration application is going to
orchestrate across multiple areas, I would hope it would have visibility
to the topologies of these areas.
[Uma]: Even for a same area or domain having a node advertise it's
loopback as router ID without relation any relation to TE (supported or
not) is a benefit in this case.
The ability of an application on a controller to know this easily is a huge advantage.
Also there could be multiple loopback and each for different purposes.
For e.g. a PCE on a controller
withhttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcepscan know PCC address
with a firewall port/IP opened on the router for TLS connection. It
would be great this can happen easily and automatically.
I don’t think anyone would have a firewall within an IGP routing domain.
Hence, it would be the same purported advantage as above.
[Uma]: IMO, it depends on the controller (where it’s located) and how
many areas/ASes it is overseeing and also depends on applications it’s
giving to access to network nodes.
In a pure IGP environment, application of FW may not be
necessary, but giving access to the nodes through
applications/controller is completely a different thing and security
requirements can be different.
Also the main point as you can see here is not only about
security but it’s about giving visibility of the “router IP” through
topology database to an outside entity.
Overall , FWIW it’s an useful addition to indicate this through (a
sub-tlv of) the router capability TLV as presented here.
--
Uma C.
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg
Uma Chunduri
2014-05-12 03:01:23 UTC
Permalink
Dear Joel,
Uma, I would point out that currently one cannot assume that a received router ID is a usqble address.
I agree this is true for OSPF.

But for IS-IS it's always a routable IP, but the point is it may not be there if there is no TE.

RFC 6119
" 4.1. IPv6 TE Router ID TLV

The IPv6 TE Router ID TLV is TLV type 140.

The IPv6 TE Router ID TLV contains a 16-octet IPv6 address. A stable
global IPv6 address MUST be used, so that the router ID provides a
routable address, regardless of the state of a node's interfaces.

If a router does not implement traffic engineering, it MAY include or
omit the IPv6 TE Router ID TLV."

Same story for IPv4 per RFC 5305. It's better to leave this "Router ID" alone for this purpose (or relax this to non TE purposes too, but one can't advertise multiple of them).
Hence, there has to be an upgrade to the advertising router to indicate this new usage. If there is an upgrade, then most of the use cases are addressed either by upgrading to the feature you really want, or by some form of service address >advertisement. Router ID does not seem to be the right hook.
Instead of "Router ID", I agree it's better to call it as Service IP or "routable IP address" TLV.
Yes, upgrade would be require for any node to emit this one!
--
Uma C.


-----Original Message-----
From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:***@joelhalpern.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2014 7:42 PM
To: Uma Chunduri; Acee Lindem
Cc: Wes George; Joel jaeggli; OSPF List; ***@ietf.org; ***@chinamobile.com
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答倍: 答倍: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

(Only to Acee and Uma. I will let you two sort this out on the list.)

Reading this thread, it look's to me like whatever uses this has, they are not related to the router ID.
So if there is anything here at all, it is some other service address advertisement.

Uma, I would point out that currently one can not assume that a received router ID is a usqble address. Hence, there has to be an upgrade to the advertising router to indicate this new usage. If there is an upgrade, then most of the use cases are addressed either by upgrading to the feature you really want, or by some form of service address advertisement. Router ID does not seem to be the right hook.

Yours,
Joel
Hi Acee,
My comments inline [Uma1]
--
Uma C.
*From:*Acee Lindem
*Sent:* Friday, May 09, 2014 6:47 PM
*To:* Uma Chunduri
*Subject:* Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答倍: 答倍: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Uma,
Hi Acee,
Post by Uma Chunduri
I can see these -
1. RLFA TLDP session without having to worry a PQ node supports TE or
not
I don't think this is a good use case. You need to have an the AF
topology in order to compute the remote LFA. Also, you may inherit
remote LFA targets for external and prefixes from other areas but you
will never compute remote LFA targets in other areas (at least not
with today's algorithms).
[Uma]: It doesn't have to be a different area. Take a simplest case of
one area or an L2 domain; after having computed all the PQ nodes in
that area/domain if the PQ node doesn't support TE and doesn't
advertise router ID (TLV 134) which IP address you would pick for TLDP session ?
You can't reliably know from the advertised prefixes from the node
that it is hosted by the node if router ID is not emitted by the node
(as it doesn't support TE).
The only advantage I can see is that a router can explicitly specify
which local address it wants to use for targeted LFA sessions.
[Uma1]: Yes Acee. This is more practical way and a separate IP can be
hosted for this and this has to be advertised as “router IP”
Post by Uma Chunduri
2. Orchestration software on a controller or an application which is
having access to
the topology database of the network may determine the node IP
address without having to go through the hoops (to determine if it's
redistributed or leaked etc..)
with this TLV.
Can you be more precise? If the orchestration application is going to
orchestrate across multiple areas, I would hope it would have
visibility to the topologies of these areas.
[Uma]: Even for a same area or domain having a node advertise it's
loopback as router ID without relation any relation to TE (supported or
not) is a benefit in this case.
The ability of an application on a controller to know this easily is a huge advantage.
Also there could be multiple loopback and each for different purposes.
For e.g. a PCE on a controller
withhttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcepscan know PCC address
with a firewall port/IP opened on the router for TLS connection. It
would be great this can happen easily and automatically.
I don’t think anyone would have a firewall within an IGP routing domain.
Hence, it would be the same purported advantage as above.
[Uma]: IMO, it depends on the controller (where it’s located) and how
many areas/ASes it is overseeing and also depends on applications it’s
giving to access to network nodes.
In a pure IGP environment, application of FW may not be
necessary, but giving access to the nodes through
applications/controller is completely a different thing and security
requirements can be different.
Also the main point as you can see here is not only about
security but it’s about giving visibility of the “router IP” through
topology database to an outside entity.
Overall , FWIW it’s an useful addition to indicate this through (a
sub-tlv of) the router capability TLV as presented here.
--
Uma C.
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg
joel jaeggli
2014-05-12 04:25:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Uma Chunduri
Dear Joel,
Uma, I would point out that currently one cannot assume that a received router ID is a usqble address.
I agree this is true for OSPF.
But for IS-IS it's always a routable IP, but the point is it may not be
there if there is no TE.
an sub tlv 6 interface-id is a not router-id

an isis system id is neither 32 bits nor ip.
Post by Uma Chunduri
RFC 6119
" 4.1. IPv6 TE Router ID TLV
The IPv6 TE Router ID TLV is TLV type 140.
The IPv6 TE Router ID TLV contains a 16-octet IPv6 address. A stable
global IPv6 address MUST be used, so that the router ID provides a
routable address, regardless of the state of a node's interfaces.
If a router does not implement traffic engineering, it MAY include or
omit the IPv6 TE Router ID TLV."
IPv6 TE Router ID TLV

is not semantically equivalent to router-id or system id and should not
be treated as such.
Post by Uma Chunduri
Same story for IPv4 per RFC 5305. It's better to leave this "Router ID"
alone for this purpose (or relax this to non TE purposes too, but one
can't advertise multiple of them).
Hence, there has to be an upgrade to the advertising router to indicate this new usage. If there is an upgrade, then most of the use cases are addressed either by upgrading to the feature you really want, or by some form of service address >advertisement. Router ID does not
seem to be the right hook.
Instead of "Router ID", I agree it's better to call it as Service IP or
"routable IP address" TLV.
Yes, upgrade would be require for any node to emit this one!
--
Uma C.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2014 7:42 PM
To: Uma Chunduri; Acee Lindem
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答倍: 答倍: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
(Only to Acee and Uma. I will let you two sort this out on the list.)
Reading this thread, it look's to me like whatever uses this has, they
are not related to the router ID.
So if there is anything here at all, it is some other service address advertisement.
Uma, I would point out that currently one can not assume that a received
router ID is a usqble address. Hence, there has to be an upgrade to the
advertising router to indicate this new usage. If there is an upgrade,
then most of the use cases are addressed either by upgrading to the
feature you really want, or by some form of service address
advertisement. Router ID does not seem to be the right hook.
Yours,
Joel
Hi Acee,
My comments inline [Uma1]
--
Uma C.
*From:*Acee Lindem
*Sent:* Friday, May 09, 2014 6:47 PM
*To:* Uma Chunduri
*Subject:* Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答倍: 答倍: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Uma,
Hi Acee,
Post by Uma Chunduri
I can see these -
1. RLFA TLDP session without having to worry a PQ node supports TE or
not
I don't think this is a good use case. You need to have an the AF
topology in order to compute the remote LFA. Also, you may inherit
remote LFA targets for external and prefixes from other areas but you
will never compute remote LFA targets in other areas (at least not
with today's algorithms).
[Uma]: It doesn't have to be a different area. Take a simplest case of
one area or an L2 domain; after having computed all the PQ nodes in
that area/domain if the PQ node doesn't support TE and doesn't
advertise router ID (TLV 134) which IP address you would pick for TLDP session ?
You can't reliably know from the advertised prefixes from the node
that it is hosted by the node if router ID is not emitted by the node
(as it doesn't support TE).
The only advantage I can see is that a router can explicitly specify
which local address it wants to use for targeted LFA sessions.
[Uma1]: Yes Acee. This is more practical way and a separate IP can be
hosted for this and this has to be advertised as “router IP”
Post by Uma Chunduri
2. Orchestration software on a controller or an application which is
having access to
the topology database of the network may determine the node IP
address without having to go through the hoops (to determine if it's
redistributed or leaked etc..)
with this TLV.
Can you be more precise? If the orchestration application is going to
orchestrate across multiple areas, I would hope it would have
visibility to the topologies of these areas.
[Uma]: Even for a same area or domain having a node advertise it's
loopback as router ID without relation any relation to TE (supported or
not) is a benefit in this case.
The ability of an application on a controller to know this easily is a huge advantage.
Also there could be multiple loopback and each for different purposes.
For e.g. a PCE on a controller
withhttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pcepscan know PCC address
with a firewall port/IP opened on the router for TLS connection. It
would be great this can happen easily and automatically.
I don’t think anyone would have a firewall within an IGP routing domain.
Hence, it would be the same purported advantage as above.
[Uma]: IMO, it depends on the controller (where it’s located) and how
many areas/ASes it is overseeing and also depends on applications it’s
giving to access to network nodes.
In a pure IGP environment, application of FW may not be
necessary, but giving access to the nodes through
applications/controller is completely a different thing and security
requirements can be different.
Also the main point as you can see here is not only about
security but it’s about giving visibility of the “router IP” through
topology database to an outside entity.
Overall , FWIW it’s an useful addition to indicate this through (a
sub-tlv of) the router capability TLV as presented here.
--
Uma C.
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
Uma Chunduri
2014-05-12 02:29:59 UTC
Permalink
Hi Acee,

My comments inline [Uma1]
--
Uma C.

From: Acee Lindem
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2014 6:47 PM
To: Uma Chunduri
Cc: Xuxiaohu; isis-***@ietf.org; Wes George; Anton Smirnov; ***@chinamobile.com; Joel jaeggli; OSPF List; ***@ietf.org; ***@chinamobile.com
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] ŽðžŽ: ŽðžŽ: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs

Hi Uma,

On May 9, 2014, at 8:03 PM, Uma Chunduri <***@ericsson.com<mailto:***@ericsson.com>> wrote:


Hi Acee,
Post by Uma Chunduri
I can see these -
1. RLFA TLDP session without having to worry a PQ node supports TE or not
I don't think this is a good use case. You need to have an the AF topology in order to compute the remote LFA. Also, you may inherit remote LFA targets for external and prefixes from other areas but you will never compute remote LFA targets in other areas (at least not with today's algorithms).

[Uma]: It doesn't have to be a different area. Take a simplest case of one area or an L2 domain; after having computed all the PQ nodes in that area/domain if the PQ node doesn't support TE and doesn't advertise router ID (TLV 134) which IP address you would pick for TLDP session ? You can't reliably know from the advertised prefixes from the node that it is hosted by the node if router ID is not emitted by the node (as it doesn't support TE).

The only advantage I can see is that a router can explicitly specify which local address it wants to use for targeted LFA sessions.

[Uma1]: Yes Acee. This is more practical way and a separate IP can be hosted for this and this has to be advertised as ¡°router IP¡±
Post by Uma Chunduri
2. Orchestration software on a controller or an application which is having access to
the topology database of the network may determine the node IP
address without having to go through the hoops (to determine if it's
redistributed or leaked etc..)
with this TLV.
Can you be more precise? If the orchestration application is going to orchestrate across multiple areas, I would hope it would have visibility to the topologies of these areas.

[Uma]: Even for a same area or domain having a node advertise it's loopback as router ID without relation any relation to TE (supported or not) is a benefit in this case.
The ability of an application on a controller to know this easily is a huge advantage.
Also there could be multiple loopback and each for different purposes. For e.g. a PCE on a controller with https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-pce-pceps can know PCC address
with a firewall port/IP opened on the router for TLS connection. It would be great this can happen easily and automatically.

I don¡¯t think anyone would have a firewall within an IGP routing domain. Hence, it would be the same purported advantage as above.

[Uma]: IMO, it depends on the controller (where it¡¯s located) and how many areas/ASes it is overseeing and also depends on applications it¡¯s giving to access to network nodes.
In a pure IGP environment, application of FW may not be necessary, but giving access to the nodes through applications/controller is completely a different thing and security requirements can be different.
Also the main point as you can see here is not only about security but it¡¯s about giving visibility of the ¡°router IP¡± through topology database to an outside entity.

Overall , FWIW it¡¯s an useful addition to indicate this through (a sub-tlv of) the router capability TLV as presented here.
--
Uma C.
Xuxiaohu
2014-05-12 01:44:13 UTC
Permalink
Hi Acee,

IMHO, segment routing could work together with the RFC3464 VPN. In such case, the segment routing just replace the role of LDP or RSVP-TE of establishing a transport LSP between PE routers.

Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月9日 20:11
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Xiaohu,
The reason the use case is confusing is that the term L3VPN is commonly used to
refer to RFC 4364 VPNs. In your use case, you are hypothesizing something for
Segment Routed L3VPNs that I’m not sure is needed with MPLS. Can you add
some real use cases to your drafts with justification that it is needed?
Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Karsten,
Your understanding is completely correct.
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月9日 16:58
收件人: Xuxiaohu; Anton Smirnov
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Xiaohu,
I think I've understand your problem now, but please don't call it a
Router ID, the router ID must not be an IP address.
To avoid any confusion about it please call it a router ip or router
address within the TLV.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I understand your drafts right
you're not requesting a real IPv6 Router ID instead of the
(arbitrary) 32bit ID, but a simple TLV to carry the routable IPv6
address of the router which advertises the capability.
If I understand it right, we should maybe fix the text of the other
rfc to refect that it is an routable IP address, instead of a
(possible) arbitrary but unique Router ID.
Kind regards
Karsten
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Anton,
When ISIS capability TLVs are flooded across areas, routers in one area may
need to establish correlations between IP addresses and capabilities
of routers in another area. For example, assume IS-IS router A in one
area has established a L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another
area. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via a
MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B (identified
by an IP address) has the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet. In such case, it needs to
contain at least one routable IP address in the capability TLV which
has been flooded across area boundaries. In the IPv4 network, the
4-octect router ID field could contain such routable IPv4 address.
However, in the IPv6 network, there is no counterpart field to contain a
routable IPv6 address.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月8日 22:49
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hello Xiaohu,
this whole thread started from George Wes stating that even in pure
IPv4 world Router ID in many protocols is NOT an IPv4 address. For
convenience it frequently is but on the binary scale "ID guaranteed
to be routable IPv4 address"/"ID is just a number" - the Router ID is NOT an
IPv4 address.
Post by Xuxiaohu
So, before you convince people that IPv6 Rtr ID is needed you
must start from discussing when and why Router ID is being used as
IPv4 address in pure
IPv4 world. I believe this in other words is what Acee asking you.
Anton
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Acee,
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very simple: the
IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for advertising
router capabilities can be flooded across areas, however, only a
4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result, it’s hard for
routers in one area to establish correlations between IPv6 addresses and
capabilities of routers in another area.
Post by Xuxiaohu
For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own
IPv6 addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router
B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has
the ELC
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result,
it !
Post by Xuxiaohu
s hard fo
r router A to know the ELC of router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月6日 21:14
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Post by Xuxiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月5日 23:55
收件人: Acee Lindem; Xuxiaohu; George, Wes
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Xiaohu – what are precisely the situations that you think you
need this
IPv6 address?
Acee
if you're using router-id's as equivalency as an ipv4 unicast addresses.
you're doing so at your peril because there is zero assurance
that those actually map. the first time you have a router id of
11100000000000000000000000000101 well bummer.
The IPv6 router ID sub-TLV of the ISIS router capability TLV must carry a
"routable" IPv6 address. If the name of the sub-TLV seems
confusing, it can be changed to IPv6 address sub-TLV.
Independent of what you call it, you didn’t answer my question.
Other than TE, what the use cases where it is needed?
Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
I don't find the embedding of semantic meaning in router-ids to
be more compelling then it was in ip addresses.
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Wes,
Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is
very
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used
for
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas,
however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a
result,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
it’s hard for routers in one area to establish
correlations
between
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For
example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a
L3VPN
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B
via
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has
the
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before>
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the
Capability
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of
its
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of
router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
*发送时间:*2014年5月2日1:51
*收件人:*Xuxiaohu
*主题:*Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the
authors’s email addresses directly.
*From: *<George>, "George, Wes"
*Date: *Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
*Subject: *[sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in
ISIS
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets.
This
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are
copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I
gave them -
It is important to distinguish between places where a unique
identifier is needed, and by *convention* an IPv4 address
assigned
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs.
places
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to
the
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action
on).
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be
unique
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter,
or is
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to
something
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the
value
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are
easier
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP
address)
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
but that value as a human-readable set of info does not
necessarily
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
justify changes to the protocol to support that
convention as
we
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols
must
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at
all.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry
IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a
network.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be
documented
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
in the draft.
There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique
identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has
been
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft
identifying this problem and discussing several solutions,
including
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically
generating a
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4,
either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another
standalone draft.
There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr
&q
=%
22
%5
Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr
(see page 11)
I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on
this.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Thanks,
Wes George
Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail
server,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
I have no control over it.
-----------
--------------------------------------------------------------
--
--
--
--
--
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner
Cable
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or
subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This
E-mail is
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which
it
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this
E-mail,
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and
attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify
the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and
any
Post by Xuxiaohu
Post by Xuxiaohu
copy of this E-mail and any printout.
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/isis-wg
_______________________________________________
Isis-wg mailing list
https://
Anton Smirnov
2014-05-08 14:49:21 UTC
Permalink
Hello Xiaohu,
this whole thread started from George Wes stating that even in pure
IPv4 world Router ID in many protocols is NOT an IPv4 address. For
convenience it frequently is but on the binary scale "ID guaranteed to
be routable IPv4 address"/"ID is just a number" - the Router ID is NOT
an IPv4 address.

So, before you convince people that IPv6 Rtr ID is needed you must
start from discussing when and why Router ID is being used as IPv4
address in pure IPv4 world. I believe this in other words is what Acee
asking you.

Anton
Post by Xuxiaohu
Hi Acee,
The motivation for these two drafts (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas, however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result, it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations between IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6 addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has the ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its own. As a result, it’s hard f
o
r router A to know the ELC of router B.
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月6日 21:14
收件人: Xuxiaohu
主题: Re: [OSPF] 答复: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Post by Xuxiaohu
-----邮件原件-----
发送时间: 2014年5月5日 23:55
收件人: Acee Lindem; Xuxiaohu; George, Wes
主题: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Xiaohu – what are precisely the situations that you think you need
this
IPv6 address?
Acee
if you're using router-id's as equivalency as an ipv4 unicast addresses.
you're doing so at your peril because there is zero assurance that
those actually map. the first time you have a router id of
11100000000000000000000000000101 well bummer.
The IPv6 router ID sub-TLV of the ISIS router capability TLV must carry a
"routable" IPv6 address. If the name of the sub-TLV seems confusing, it can be
changed to IPv6 address sub-TLV.
Independent of what you call it, you didn’t answer my question. Other than TE,
what the use cases where it is needed?
Acee
Post by Xuxiaohu
Best regards,
Xiaohu
I don't find the embedding of semantic meaning in router-ids to be
more compelling then it was in ip addresses.
Date: Sunday, May 4, 2014 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Isis-wg] [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
Hi Wes,
Thanks for pointing out these two drafts.
The motivation for these two drafts
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-ipv6-router-id-00 and
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-ospf-ipv6-router-id-00) is very
simple: the IPv6 ISIS|OSPF capability TLV/RI-LSA which are used for
advertising router capabilities can be flooded across areas,
however, only a 4-octect router ID is carried in them. As a result,
it’s hard for routers in one area to establish correlations between
IPv6 addresses and capabilities of routers in another area. For
example, assume IS-IS router A in one area has established a L3VPN
session with IS-IS router B in another area over their own IPv6
addresses. When router A needs to send L3VPN traffic to router B via
a MPLS-SR tunnel, router A wants to know whether router B has the
ELC (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00) before
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xu-isis-mpls-elc-00)%20before>
inserting an EL into the MPLS-SR packet . However, the Capability
TLV originated by router B doesn’t carried an IPv6 address of its
own. As a result, it’s hard for router A to know the ELC of router B.
Best regards,
Xiaohu
*发送时间:*2014年5月2日1:51
*收件人:*Xuxiaohu
*主题:*Re: [sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I got a bounce-back on all 3 draft aliases, trying again with the
authors’s email addresses directly.
*Date: *Thursday, May 1, 2014 at 1:42 PM
*Subject: *[sunset4] IPv6 router IDs
I see that you have submitted two drafts for IPv6 router IDs in ISIS
and OSPF, noting that the existing router ID is only 4 octets. This
has also come up in IDR for BGP. The authors of that draft are
copied. I’ll give you a similar set of feedback to what I gave
them -
It is important to distinguish between places where a unique
identifier is needed, and by *convention* an IPv4 address assigned
to the device has been used to provide that unique ID, vs. places
where the actual IP address has some sort of importance to the
protocol (I.e. That information must be available to take action on).
In other words, is the protocol requirement that the ID be unique
across some domain, but that the actual value does not matter, or is
the protocol requirement that the value must correspond to something
on the router? In many of the former cases, the fact that the value
isn’t relevant has been used to make recommendations that are easier
for humans to deal with (I.e. Tying the router ID to an IP address)
but that value as a human-readable set of info does not necessarily
justify changes to the protocol to support that convention as we
move to IPv6.
I would argue that the router ID used in routing protocols must
merely be unique, but it doesn’t have to be an IP address at all.
Thus it is not strictly necessary to create a new field to carry
IPv6 addresses when operating without IPv4 addresses on a network.
If you believe otherwise, the justification needs to be documented
in the draft.
There are many places in IETF protocols where a 32 bit unique
identifier is needed, and by convention an IPv4 address has been
used. It would be far more useful to write a general draft
identifying this problem and discussing several solutions, including
simply generating unique IDs manually, systematically generating a
random ID, etc. the place for such a draft may be in Sunset4,
either as a part of the existing gap analysis draft or as another
standalone draft.
There was rather a long discussion about this on IDR, thread
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?qdr=a&email_list=idr&q=%22
%5
Bidr%5D+%5Bv6ops%5D+BGP+Identifier%22&as=1&gbt=1
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/minutes/minutes-89-idr (see page 11)
I’d encourage the authors of these drafts to work together on this.
Thanks,
Wes George
Anything below this line has been added by my company’s mail server,
I have no control over it.
-----------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--
--
This E-mail and any of its attachments may contain Time Warner Cable
proprietary information, which is privileged, confidential, or
subject to copyright belonging to Time Warner Cable. This E-mail is
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it
is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail,
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution,
copying, or action taken in relation to the contents of and
attachments to this E-mail is strictly prohibited and may be
unlawful. If you have received this E-mail in error, please notify
the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any
copy of this E-mail and any printout.
_______________________________________________
sunset4 mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sunset4
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
_______________________________________________
OSPF mailing list
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ospf
Loading...